Holly Raña Lim on Confronting Stereotypes, Imposter Syndrome, and Racial Identity

Holly talks about her journey and ever-changing identity growing up as a Pinay immigrant, and how she found her voice as a self-described introvert to become Student Body President at UC-Riverside and the founder of Holly Lim Strategies, a campaign strategy consulting firm that helps BIPOC and young adult candidates win their first election. 

She also shares what it was like to interview former First Lady Michelle Obama (!!!) about Inclusive Leadership & Diversity.  

We unpack the stereotypes, sexism and imposter syndrome that can present a challenge for BIPOC and AAPI political candidates, particularly women. Holly shares how we can draw on the power of our ancestors to propel us in moments of adversity.  We talk about how to take a break from social media, and why it’s so therapeutic to tap into our creative energy to nurture our own mental health.
 
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider supporting us on Ko-Fi, subscribing, and sharing our podcast episode with a friend.

Mental Health and Leadership Resources:

Wondering how to grow, nurture and strengthen your most authentic leadership areas in life and career?  Holly is offering an exclusive discount for personalized 1 to 1 leadership coaching strategy sessions for Thrive Spice listeners.  To learn more, enter the promo code THRIVE SPICE on her website contact form, available at Holly Lim Strategies.

Stop Asian Hate / AAPI Community Support:
As we close out AAPI Heritage month and Mental Health Awareness month, I know that so many of us continue to feel angry, traumatized and anxious about the increase in Anti-Asian violence, hate speech and microaggressions in our communities. I’ve been so inspired by how so many have stepped up to organize, educate, and speak up on this, including Holly, who organizes community-based solutions and fundraisers.

For AAPI Heritage month, Holly is giving to the Korean Community Center of the East Bay. One of the ways you can stop Asian hate and support elders is by supporting the most vulnerable local AAPI communities by donating to Bus For Hope.
#mentalhealthawarenessmonth #apahm #aapi #stopaapihate #stopasianhate #endracism

Learn More about the history of the Filipino manong generation:
(source: Advancing Justice LA)
"From 1900 to 1934, Filipinos began immigrating to the California Central Valley, where there was a high demand for field laborers. Filipino immigrants, known as “Pinoys,” worked in the fields of the San Joaquin Valley, Salinas, and Sacramento. Another wave of Filipino immigration occurred after the passage of the Immigration Act of 1965.

Many Filipinos found themselves isolated from the rest

Transcript

Thrive Spice interview transcript with Holly Raña Lim, MA (she/her/hers | Pinay)

Vanessa Shiliwala:  I'd love to just start with you sharing your personal story.  We're still celebrating Asian Pacific American heritage month, and I would just love to hear,  just start at the beginning, right? What was your childhood like? What was your experience coming here to America at a young age? And how is it different than what you or your family had imagined? 

Holly Lim: Yeah,   coming to America was really interesting. I came when I was maybe four or five and I think, you know what, I remember one of my first memories here was,  coming out of LAX, going into our relatives car and asking my mom in the car on our way,  we're on the freeway.   How come my hair, isn't turning blonde and why aren't my eyes turning blue. And,  I had this idea, I don't know where it came from, but I had this idea that I was going to become white or turn white, or had this desire to become like white bodied by being in a new place like the United States.

And I think that's,  I think in my family, it's kind of this like funny haha  story that people sometimes refer to and have a good laugh about it. And I think for me, it's, it's a really interesting starting point because it makes me wonder, it makes me kind of have this curiosity around how did that idea get into my head?

And so , part of it is that I think in the Philippines, there's just so much history there and so much influence and impact from colonialism and imperialism that I think a lot of the things that I was telling myself came from the trauma and the history from those oppressive systems that even though , we're not a colonized state,  or  that the Philippines isn't colonized anymore, there's still a lot of residual energy and remnants of trauma from that time that we then pass on through the next generation.

And,  yeah so it was really interesting to kind of have that as one of my first memories coming to the US, I think generally my childhood was good. I think the one thing that stands out for me is,  sometimes this lack of belonging,  as a child. And I think part of where that comes from is I think part of like the Asian immigrant experience.

And of course I didn't have the language for all of this until I was in college.  But I think part of  the Asian stereotype is that we're this perpetual foreigner. And so I think,  I kind of carried that in my like five, six year old body. When I went to school, I was the only Asian girl in my class.

 Not a lot of Asians,  where I went to elementary and junior high and,  Yeah, for a good eight years. I was the only Asian girl in my class.  I didn't have any Asian teachers.  I think part of my lack of belonging too, is that,   immigrant only Asian person, and I'm also an introvert, so more belonging and playing with puzzles or reading a book,  doing solitary things.

 And so,  even in the media there wasn't really a belonging. So , I would watch movies, TV, even the news, no one looked like me.  And I remember one story in particular, I was watching 90210. And the episode that comes to mind for me, that I remember a lot is the episode where Brandon Walsh is this like blonde, very good looking, has everything going for him.  So he was a college student and in that episode, he had become the Student Body President of his university. And the first thought that came to my head in my mind was, I can never be that. And so again, like what were the stories that I was being fed that I was internalizing that a young girl would think I can never be a leader?

I can never be in that position.  And  part of it is this lack of belonging, lack of representation  on all levels from my own teachers,  to my environment, to what was being presented to me on TV and movies and books.  I think the only book that I had read when I was a kid that had an Asian character in it was The Babysitter's Club.

Vanessa Shiliwala:   Yes.

Holly Lim: Yeah.

Vanessa Shiliwala:  I love Claudia Kishi!

Holly Lim:  At the time,  I think,  with my identity, as I always have thought of myself as like Filipino, so I didn't make that connection of like, Oh, she's Asian, I'm Asian, until like,  much later.  But I bring about the point of belonging because,  it was interesting was that when I ended up going to UC Riverside for school, for college,  I ended up being student body president.

And so there had to have been so much unlearning. And so much undoing that had to be done for me to go from the narrative of, I can never be that to not just being that, but doing that too.  And so I think narratives and stories are so powerful because we internalize some of them and they influence us in ways that I think we don't realize stories influence us.

Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah. You said that so well, in terms of just illustrating how there's so many different ways that we're fed these oftentimes implicit messages, they're not exactly spelled out, but even as a child, at the age of four, that somehow what you look like or what your identity is. ...was not a framework for what America was supposed to be or what success looked like or what leadership looked like.

And I'm finding that similar to you, sometimes 20, 30 years later, we're still processing a lot of that and kind of unpacking it for ourselves and having to, as you said, unlearn, a lot of these lessons that we grew up with that were harmful to our own development. So I'm curious,  what did you tell yourself to go from that moment where you're seeing someone on TV who doesn't look like you becoming a Student Body President and thinking that it's never going to be me to,  being in that position of leadership, of being Student Body President? Tell us a little bit more about your journey there. 

Holly Lim: So I think what's really important when it comes to doing leadership development and particularly with women of color and especially young women of color is that there has to be some sort of support system that basically reflects a mirror onto you.

That this is actually who you really are.  Not the stories that tell you what you are, and therefore you then limit yourself to a box of the things that you are and can be. And so I was very lucky when we started out at UC Riverside.  I had relatives who had gone to that school also.  I guess through that relationship, I was able to develop friendships and mentorship with older,  particularly like Filipina American college women,  students who were very involved, they were community organizers on campus,  They were senators on the student Senate.

One of them was vice-president. And so they took me under their wing and really did a lot of leadership development, a lot of mentorship. And they also pushed me because,  I partly joined student government because I thought it was going to be like high school where it's like “Time for prom!”  No, I was still like this introvert where it's like, “Leave me alone.  I'm just going to do signs. Like give me all the things that like no one wants to do. I'll do them.” And they really challenged me. They said, you know what?  We're working on this proposition, with a statewide coalition of students. So,  one of the very first things I did as a college student was, they told me you're going to go to the lecture hall where there's 500 students.

And you're going to tell them about this proposition and you're going to offer them a time to register, to vote y'all this and that. I was just like, how, how,  I went from like the introvert who was like, make me do signs, let me do all the things that I can do by myself really well to I'm now communicating with 500 other students about a policy that could impact people of color, students of color,  in a college campus that I've only been on for like a week or two.

So they saw a lot in me that I didn't see in myself.  And so I think a lot of the journey, and I think,  part of my research in graduate school was the political,  or more so the leadership paths of Asian American women in politics, that was a recurring theme of women,  Asian American women, not realizing they were leaders.

There was a support system that said, you are a leader. This is how we're going to support you, this is how we're going to challenge you. And there was also an ask.  I found that as a common theme as well, is that, usually my research showed that Asian-American women who become political leaders don't do it because, Oh, I just want to do it.

 It's usually because. They're working on a cause something that they're deeply impacted by, they want to make a difference. So they start organizing, they start advocating and through that process, people are like, Oh, you're actually a really good leader. And then,  typically there's an ask, someone needs an ask, they'll say, Hey, can you apply to be on this committee?

You did a really good job and Z, or they'll say,  you did a really great job at that community, blah, blah, blah. Can you run for office?  So part of that journey is having a support system really mirror for you really are who you are authentically as a leader. And then also someone tends to make an ask that you then kind of evaluate and realize,  Oh,  I never really considered running or I never really considered being on a commission because for me, I,  I got into student government again, cause I wanted to do introvert of things myself.

And,  at the end of my first year they made an ask. They said, can you run for Senate? And I was like, y'all are crazy kind of, kind of the same spiel I gave them when they told me. So you're going to go to the lecture hall and talk to 500 students about voting a particular way. And  it was kind of,  that was the ask.

That was the first ask. Like, can you run for Senate? And then it was again, the following year, can you run for vice-president and then the following year, can you run for president? And I think,  as the years went by,  I didn't have to be asked. I felt that this was part of my journey and what I wanted to do.

And,  I also. Was more understanding of what my power was and what my purpose was. And so I was going to follow it myself. And that's not to say that,  I let go of all the support systems. I feel like it's really important to have your friends and your mentors and people who can continue to help you navigate through spaces that I've never been on.

And that people in my family have never been on, or maybe anyone from my,   from my racial or ethnic group might have never been on. And so it's important to continue to build those relationships, rely on them and also support others to do the same. Right. So for me, that's why it's really important to continue doing mentorship for others, because I know how much of a huge impact it was for me to have had that.

Vanessa Shiliwala: That's so powerful and I'm so glad you shared how there were others in the community who saw you in a way that you weren't even able to see yourself at that point in your life. And I think that, it's so moving, but also I guess, unsurprising that Asian American women,  we struggle with this and can you blame us?

I mean , we grow up facing so much adversity in terms of being shown that we're, we're not worthy in a sense of these leadership positions. And it's funny that you mentioned that there's always this ask, right? Like someone's pushing us, someone's making us uncomfortable. And  it's indicative of that. 

Self journey that we have as well,  where we have to begin with our own selves of seeing ourselves as capable, seeing ourselves as being in that position. And yeah, I'm sure it's something that takes years, right? It's not overnight, but I love that you really face this, this fear and I'm also an introvert, so I can understand, like, it is really scary at first.

 Especially if you're not even sure, like, Hey, do I, do I belong here?  What am I doing here? And,  to get out in front of 500 people on your first try is really astounding and,  incredible. So I'm happy you did that. I think it's also really heartwarming to hear how other women in this community have helped you.

I think that sometimes we witness,  people,  or we have this narrative, like women who don't want to help others or there's this competitive thing.  So I think it's really important to also spread stories about women who have helped other women and who have offered,  that support or in that mirror, as you mentioned to show us like, no,  you are capable of this and we see something in you,  and I think that also empowers us to pass it on, right.

To share that spirit with somebody else.  And you touched on  a really important  fact, which is that Asian Americans are severely underrepresented in media, government and executive roles.  Even more so for Asian women who are statistically the least likely racial and gender group to become CEOs in Fortune 500 companies and tech companies.

But, there are some bright spots, right? Seeing, for example, VP Kamala Harris,  or even AOC elected into office. It gives us this sense of hope. What challenges do you think face Asian American women who are pursuing leadership positions, whether in government, media or corporate boardrooms and what do you think needs to happen to change this?

Holly Lim: Yeah , those are really good questions. I think when it comes to challenges facing Asian-American women who are pursuing leadership,  I think there's a ton - to start with,  I think going back to the power of narratives and stories, I think one is the idea of,  how we see women and Asian American women in particular based on stereotypes, because I think these stereotypes follow us, not just in the workplace, but also in leadership and in other parts of our lives.

 The two stereotypes that I, that come to mind for me that I think are the most prevalent and I think are the most dangerous for us and challenging,  is the idea that like on this one end of the spectrum is that we're submissive and passive and are just like whatever we're chill, do whatever you want.

 And then at the other end of that spectrum is this dragon lady, conniving, untrustworthy,  just.  Thinking up plots of how to take over and violence.  I think the image that comes to mind is Lucy Liu's character in Kill Bill. Right.  And I think there's a slew of characters in the media that portray  the submissive Asian-American woman type.

And I think,  part of the reason why this is dangerous is that there are two very contradictory stereotypes. And at the same time, those are the two things that we're allowed to be in work and as leaders. So for instance, when I think about Asian American women, politicians, like let's take a look at policies around crime.

 If their policy is more so geared towards rehabilitation and community and that sort of thing they're going to be seen as too soft. You're too soft on crime. So they fall under the submissive, passive,  soft, soft stereotype. But if,  they have policies that  are very  direct and   maybe   have penalties or whatnot they're going to be seen as too harsh.

Right. And so what's really dangerous for us is that we're going to be put in these boxes, seen in these boxes in leadership positions as, Oh, they're too soft, too submissive OR they're too hard on us. They're too harsh. And that is a recipe for  crazy making. Because you can either be one of the two.

So your intention may not be to be, either of those two, your intention is to be like I'm Holly Lim, these are the policies that reflect my values and that reflect on the stances that I ran on, but the world is going to perceive them as the dragon lady stereotype or the submissive stereotype.  And so I think that really impacts the mental health, particularly of Asian American women in leadership, particularly in politics and in policy.

And I think the other added layer to that too, is sexism and male dominance. And the purpose of sexism and male dominance is to make women forget who they are. And so I've had that happen repeatedly to me in my career where the narratives that like the men who had held in the fields that I were in,  or while I was a leader,  made me go like maybe I, maybe I shouldn't be doing this.

Right. So it'd be look at that,  example about,  crime policy.   My mentees, people who I coach or candidates that I work with is to make your own narrative and use that narrative to fall back on when situations like this arise. And you're like, wait, who am I, what am I trying to do? Like, why did I even run in the first place?

Why did I even do this business? Why did I even think that that product would be a good idea?  If, if I was getting that feedback, I'm going to be like, wait, I didn't realize like that was too harsh. I didn't realize that that was too soft. I'm like, what am I trying to do? Right. So I think sometimes what ends up happening is that because of sexism and male dominance, we forget who we are.

And I think one of the things that I encourage.  And so I really encourage people to write, even if it's just a small journal entry, who am I and not, who am I based on my job title, not based on being a mom or a daughter or a sister, or  any kind of the roles we fill, but who are you as a person?

Vanessa Shiliwala: That is so powerful. And, and you said it so well, I think,  going back to  the two, I guess, choices, right. That we have as the stereotypes of being submissive or dragon lady: one strips away our power,  the other strips away trust. Right. So it's just, as you mentioned, different ways to strip us of our story of who we are and causing us to doubt our legitimacy.

 And so it's just emblematic of just how difficult it is, these barriers that are both external and internal when situations like this happen to us.   It is really incredible that still, despite that, there are women and Asian Americans in this space who still keep going, but I think it is helpful to just be aware, right?

 Of what's going on so we can even name it for ourselves. Because I think it is a very isolating experience if you're going through this and questioning your own legitimacy and maybe even having like imposter syndrome or something,  do you find that imposter syndrome or limiting beliefs are common amongst the candidates you supported who are running for political office?

 How do we change the way that we affirm ourselves or talk to ourselves and just equip ourselves with a mental fortitude to do what has never been done before and change history? 

Holly Lim: Thanks. I mean,  part of my approach is similar to,  when I had just shared about creating,  going back to that story of who am I, because my hope in people reflecting, who am I outside of all the roles that we fill really then helps to create a new narrative.

So yes, we might have this very vicious, two sided, stereotypes that are, that's very prevalent about Asian American women. And at the same time, we also have the power to reclaim our own stories. Once you share that to say, Hey, I do not fit in those two stereotypes. I actually have this story and this is the story that you're going to remember me by.

So I think there's power in that. And I think that's one of the ways to address imposter syndrome is to,  reflect on your own story and to use that as to be like. Heck. Yeah, bad-ass actually, and,  imposter syndrome, it is, yes. It's, it's prevalent.  I think particularly for women and people of color, not just in politics, but everywhere.

 I see it in all fields.  There's this one documentary,  that includes AOC and,  on Netflix and,  she's preparing for a debate against the incumbent. Who's been in that position  for years. And I remember she was doing affirmations as she was preparing.  And I think a lot of it does have to deal with our Self- Talk, how we prepare to be in spaces and in rooms.

And so I think,  part of it is what is your story? Write that down. So you remember who you are again,  if you go into a boardroom and you're the only woman and like there's sexism happening,  part of the influence could be like, you're going to forget who you are potentially in that space.

And so if you have your own story that you remember have practiced,   at saying,  this is the proposal we're going to go with this, right. Or preparing with affirmations beforehand. I think that's really helpful.  I also do this thing where I, I actually, part of my preparation is to ask my ancestors to help me and to be in the room with me.

Vanessa Shiliwala: I love that! Sorry  keep going. But I was like, Oh, I just got goosebumps. I, I love that. And I think it speaks so much to our heritage and  how we value our family, but please continue.

Holly Lim:  Yeah. Yeah. So,  part of,  my routine or a custom that I've developed, if I'm going into a room that I've never been in ,  or into a role that like no one in my family has ever been in, that maybe a woman of color has never been in, I'll,  wear my grandma's ring. There's something that reminds me  of, of someone in my family who has passed,  And,  say I'm interviewing for a job, that's a job that someone that looks like the does not usually apply for.  So what I'll do is I,  will do that process of like, I'll wear my grandma's ring or the watch.

 My uncle had given me when I was four it's like this  Mickey Mouse watch,  or something. And then when I'm actually in this space, I imagine them coming into the room. And then that helps me a lot because you're not just  that feeling you get when you're a leader sometimes, or if you're in a position that  people like you have never been in before, it can be very isolating and it can be, it can make someone feel very alone.

And so. When you bring your ancestors into a room where they have never been to that's powerful is you're not alone. Yeah. And,  yeah, and you're, you're kind of just like a culmination of all of them too. So I think there's a lot of power in that and it's, it's really difficult to have imposter syndrome.

When you imagine that in that they're here with me, it's not just me and they're coming with me, they're coming to a space where they've never been to before. So we're going to do this all together.  Preparing in those ways are, I think are very helpful.  Particularly in combating imposter syndrome.

I go through it sometimes too.   It's a little challenging from time to time, but you gotta find ways to remember again, who you are, remember your story and find the supports to help you get back on that path. 

Vanessa Shiliwala:  I'm so moved by this because I think it really speaks to how,  in Asian culture  we're taught to revere our ancestors, where we pay our respects to them and they are part of our stories.

And we carry that with us every single day. And it is so powerful to imagine it working for us in terms of bringing their energy with us into spaces where we might feel scared, where we might feel like we need to be brave in that moment. And the theme of your career is that you've never been alone because you've had the support of a community member or a mentor, or even your own self affirming thoughts, and then adding in a layer of your ancestors as protective energy.

And I think that's so powerful for us to just take a step back and evaluate when we are feeling isolated, as you were saying, because we're never alone. And we have their energy and their spirit with us. And I do believe in the power of visualization, and affirmations, I think it's really helped me in high-performance situations.

And I actually, in my office, I have a scroll that my grandfather wrote for me, it's Chinese  calligraphy, and he actually wrote it the summer before he passed away from cancer. And my parents actually didn't find it for another 10 plus years. And one day they were cleaning out the attic and they found this like rolled up scroll.

Cause he used to do a lot of calligraphy and it was addressed to me. And,  it was,  roughly translated, It says that,  in the ocean is where the dragons live and in the skies are where the cranes fly. You feel free to roam wherever you please.  And then he addressed it to me and  it can be interpreted in many different ways, but it's this like massive six foot scroll.

That's literally hanging above my screen right now as we speak. And I look at that every day and   I'm going to be honest. Sometimes I felt overwhelmed by it. I was like, Oh no, I'm letting him down. Like, you know what if I'm not like reaching my potential or something, but there's some times where I look at it and I think

 what he saw me, I was eight years old at the time. Like somehow he saw in me that , there was this potential that I could be something more than what others might've thought of me. And I think that's really given me the power to even try to reclaim my power at times when I felt kind of unsure in my journey.

So I think that's so inspiring and such a good tip. Like,  everyone has moments where they doubt themselves or they're scared. Right? I mean, sometimes it's good. Right?  Change can be good. It could be, it was such thing as a, a good kind of stress, but,  thank you so much for, for sharing that story.

  I want to switch gears a little bit and,  just explore a little bit more about,  your own identity.  I'm finding that within the AAPI community, there's so much diversity, right? Or so many different ethnicities, different languages, different religions. Sometimes we struggle even to understand our own diaspora.

So in the spirit of just coming from a place of learning, I want to ask you more about your identity as a Filipina. There are so many different labels for Filipinos,  Filipinx, Pinoy, Pinay, et cetera.  Do you feel an affinity for any one of them and why? Yeah. Thank you for that.  I think I want to start off by saying that, for me, identity is fluid.

Holly Lim:  So what I kind of think about when I think about fluidity is water.   Water can be a liquid state, it could be a solid, it could be a gas, but no matter what it's still water ...right? It just kind of depends on the conditions and the environment. And what's going on at the time.

And so I kind of  feel similarly about my identity, my ethnic identity,  when I first came to the United States, definitely Filipino.  Just cause that's like what I would hear from family and friends and currently what I would identify as is  Pinay,  mostly because  I identify a lot with my gender.

 I feel like I can't remove my race and ethnicity from my experience. And I also can't remove my experiences as a woman too -it blends equally for me.  And also too, sometimes I don't quite identify with the American part.  And so,  Pinay  feels at this moment,  what I identify with.  At one point when I was in college, I identified as Pilipino with a P.

And the reason for that was because I was learning a lot about Filipino history and about all of the ways that we were colonized and all of the ways that Filipinos were oppressed and learned that there's no F in the original  Language.  That F came with our colonizers as part of their alphabet.

And, but,  we've had the P so I was just like, I don't want my colonizer's alphabet in my identity, sort of,   radical college students. So I began identifying as Pilipino in college what was that,  like almost 20 years ago. And then,  I didn't get my citizenship until I was a young adult.

So,   when that had happened, I was like, well, I guess I'm Filipino American. So there's like, there again, there's like a fluidity there and  who knows maybe 10 years from now, I'm going to identify a different way.  And so that's kind of how I see my identity as this  fluid state, like the way water is it's,  one day I'll,  say I'm,  identify this way.

And then another day, maybe like a year later, something else has happened in my experience, that's going to make me want to identify in a different way.  I think what's interesting too, is that it also kind of depends on the audience and how much they're going to get. So if I'm going to be at a meeting where it's primarily like white folks, to be honest, I'm just going to say I'm Filipino-American cause that's easy to understand.

Right.  If I say, Oh, I'm Pinay, they're going to just be like, wait, what does that mean? I don't know if  I would have  the bandwidth to share,  in that position. So,   in, in Asian American spaces, I'll probably say Pinai just because I think most folks get what that means, especially in Filipino spaces.

So I think part of it too is,  who am I talking to and how much time and energy and effort do I want to spend in explaining  what I identify as  there's, there's different things that go into it.

Vanessa Shiliwala:  I love that you expressed it as fluid.  Because I think that to your point, we, we have a journey in terms of our own identity.

Holly Lim: And as you said, different life experiences. So it does change over time. And it does depend on who we're talking to. And I did want to,  follow up and go more into that like code switching, right? And that energy that goes into, as you mentioned, that bandwidth, that it takes to explain to someone.

Vanessa Shiliwala: And,  personally I found  a lot of energy would have to go into explaining, whether I liked it or not. Right. But  it's kind of an age old question. Is it ever okay to ask someone where are you from? Especially within the first five minutes of meeting that person, but I don't know about you, but in my lifetime, I've been asked that so many times within the first five minutes someone's meeting me.

And oftentimes the inferrment is you don't belong here. What are you doing here? And I guess my question to you is, is there ever an appropriate time to ask that? And if not,  what is a better thing to say, just for those who might be wondering about that?  

Holly Lim: in my opinion,  it's not necessarily the question itself, but the motive behind the question.

Because when I hear that question, it's like, "No, where are you really from?" Not really to know where I am from. It's not really to get to know me better. It's to understand, again, going back to stereotypes it's to understand perhaps the stereotypes associated with that racial group or ethnic group. And I think sometimes the intention is to lean on those stereotypes to make a connection with that person.

So if    particularly if white people ask,  where are you really from? And  I'll respond with, Oh, well,  I was born in the Philippines, but I grew up here. They'll be like, Oh, I love adobo. Adobo again, or like, Oh yeah, lumpia's good, huh? And I'm like, yeah. Okay. Like I really don't care.

Okay. I really don't.  It's like, okay. Kind of a nice try.  But I feel like, I feel like it should be my choice to reveal parts of me. Like you are not entitled to anything about me is kind of how I feel about it. It should be my choice to share as much as I want to with whoever it is that I'm speaking with.

So if you're a stranger and you're asking me questions that you feel entitled to, I'm going to respond with,  I'm from the Bay area or I'm from California.  I'm gonna respond with an answer that's not really going to give you the answer that you want,  because why- I don't have to give that to you, you know?

 And people can ask other questions that,  could be,  why are you here?  Like what, what drew you here?  Like, let's, let's start off with  more  questions that might matter to that person. Right?  And so that might take a little bit of work on the other person's part to figure out questions that aren't,  where are you really from? No, where are you really from?   There are like a million other questions that I think someone else could ask that could,  help you learn more about me or  other folks of color who may not necessarily be open and sharing that information because I feel like people of color have a good gut feeling about whether someone who's asking is genuine about it.

Vanessa Shiliwala: For sure. 

Holly Lim: Right? Like, we've kind of just gotten that like third sense of like, I know this person doesn't really care. They just want to know, so they can talk about how they like my people's food. 

Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah. 

Holly Lim: So,  yeah. I don't think it's really ever right to ask that question, especially for a stranger or someone that you've met right off the bat.

There's definitely a ton of other questions that people can ask to get to know other people better. 

Vanessa Shiliwala: Yes, absolutely. And I think to your point, it's about tying that people put in some work into asking a different question and seeing beyond just the face and trying to categorize us neatly into their box.

And it's funny, you mentioned the third sense because I've had this happen to me so many times where sometimes I've even just walking on a street and I don't even see that person, but I can feel them and they're following me. And I know it's going to take maybe about half a block or a block, but they're going to ask me something about my race or say something like that, or say Konnichiwa or just something just stupid.

Right? So you do develop that sixth sense and,  it's, it's tough, right? You feel like you're wearing a suit of armor wherever you go. And it would just be so much more humanizing if people would take the time to just ask us anything else, but that question,  yeah. And to your point, it's our choice.

  Sometimes I think if someone is, as you were saying, if you sense their intentions are in the right place, I'm happy to offer my story.  But so often in my history, it's been proffered as a kind of either you don't belong here or let me try to exert my own power over you in some way, by telling you what you are,  to your earlier point of making us forget who we are.

 Just even walking down the street. It's such a difficult time, right?  We've had the pandemic, we've had hate crimes.  Social media has now even become more so of like our solitary source of interaction or news in this world due to the pandemic and just... life.

  Recently Netflix came out with a documentary called The Social Dilemma that reveals some of the ways that social media is negatively impacting our mental health and wellbeing.  How has social media and the pandemic impacted your own mental health? 

Holly Lim: Yeah, I think what was really interesting was that in 2019, my new year's resolution was to give up social media.

So I wasn't on social media for 2019. And then,  I actually liked it.  I would only go on, on social media if my job required me to, you've  gotta pay your rent, right? But I didn't do any personal use. I wasn't on Facebook or Instagram. And I actually really liked that. I felt like I was more present in the world. I had more time for things that I wanted to do.

 And it kind of continued on in the beginning of 2020. And I was like, I kind of want to keep doing this. It's actually working out for me. And then the pandemic happened and I found myself back on social media and doing a ton more of it than I had done originally because  you can't see people, you can't see your friends, you can't be with your community.

And  this was one of the safest ways to remain social,   stay connected without putting your health or other people's health in danger. And so  my use did go up. And I think when I had awareness around like,   the doom scrolling right as they call it now,  when I had that, the mindfulness that I was doing that, I thought it would be good to have breaks.

So,  that could look like one day, one week, a whole month,  whatever felt right in the moment. And so that's something that I think I was able to practice throughout 2020, and even into now,  I've been taking maybe like a few weeks off of Instagram the last few weeks, and I think that's definitely been helpful.

 I think part of why I did that was in particular to the anti Asian hate and violence,  It was really hard for me to see it on TV and the news constantly. And it was really hard for me. I know people had good intentions behind it, but it was also a little bit triggering to like be on social media and you're scrolling and it's like almost every other thing is about it.

And  for me, when I go on social media, it kind of feels like a break, like, Oh, I need to take a break. I'm just going to like, take a look at what's on my feed.  But then it doesn't become a break when there's content that's triggering. And I think on top of that too,  things like,   the Breonna Taylor, the verdict,  for the person that was responsible or,  the George Floyd incident, like 

there was just so much racial violence happening in the real world. And I think there so much, really great like social media  activism, and digital organizing. And there was also kind of a lot of content there that also felt triggering for me that it was important to take breaks.

 So that's kind of how it's impacted my mental health is that like sometimes the content can be triggering. And I also know it's my choice that  I can have the choice to get off of it.  So what I do is I actually take the app off my phone and I set timers, make sure that I stay within that timeframe.

And,  just encourage people to kind of see what works for them, explore, because what might work for me might not work for everyone.  I know someone out there is probably like what she gave up Instagram for the whole 2019. So,[laughs] that worked for me, but  for, for other folks it might be like one day might be enough or,  a weekend or what have you.

So I think it's important to take breaks.  And I think what's helpful too, is to replace that time. So it's like, okay, I'm not going to be on social media. And what's helpful is if you have a plan in place. So,  I like to do kind of crafty things sometimes. So I'm into making earrings right now.

Vanessa Shiliwala: Are those the ones you're wearing right now? So cool. I love it. They're kind of like abstract. Like we're going to have to post a screenshot for everybody to put some love on your earrings because those are so cool. I love it. What do they made of? 

Holly Lim:  Polymer clay earrings. 

Vanessa Shiliwala: Very cool. 

Holly Lim:  Yeah . I think what I like about it is it kind of feels like  like Play-Doh almost, and so you're just like kind of molding and,  conditioning them and,   using,  what are they called cutouts like these patterns to cut them out and,  you have to bake them so that they become solid. You've  got to sand, there's like a process to it, kind of meditative.

There's like different steps.  So,  I'll say,  I won't be on social media this weekend, but instead of doing that, I'm going to take some time to make earrings. And then you kind of have something to look forward to, especially if it's something that you like doing, as opposed to the taking away of something that I sometimes think I'm addicted to.

So,  I think it helps to replace the,  social media with something that you like doing in real life. 

Vanessa Shiliwala: I think that's so cool. I mean, just to be able to show people that, Hey, yeah, I wasn't on Instagram for the last two days and guess what I made instead, that is so cool. I'm definitely jealous of that.

I'm like, wow, I should do that instead. And I love that you set so many boundaries for yourself and,  just really held yourself accountable to it with the timers. And,  I think a lot of people are actually going to be like, that's a great idea.  Because this documentary, basically the theme is yes, we are addicted because the software engineers that are engineering this are making it so that it is addictive, and it does make us more depressed and isolated. And,  I think that's really admirable that you've recognized that and reclaimed that space and that time for yourself.  And then top it all off, make something out of it, which is so cool.   And you mentioned it as meditative and I also can understand that as well.

Holly Lim: Well,  being able to work with your hands and, have something go through multiple processes, much like us, like human beings, right. And then you create this work of art and it's so beautiful and you can wear it with pride and, and there's something,  Tangible about how you spent your time and your talent.

Vanessa Shiliwala:  That is just so cool.   Continuing on the topic of joy,  what else has brought you joy or comfort during these uncertain times?   Comfort food or people or activities.  Can you share more about that? 

Holly Lim: Yeah.  Definitely food. I love food.  Talking about social media.  I try not to take social media too seriously, but the things that I post about are like food and I really love dogs as well.

I think like cute dog videos  always boost my mood. So I can have the worst day ever, and if you show me a cute dog video, I'll be like, Oh, the world is okay. Or,  I've been known to also just like really love pandas also, and they're so adorable. So,  sometimes,  I'll look up....

I don't know if the San Diego zoo has them anymore, but  I'll Google a Panda cam at a zoo and yeah, you just watch pandas like fall or take a nap or eat - it's a little weird.

Vanessa Shiliwala:  I don't think it's weird at all. 

Holly Lim:  But yeah, but at least for me, they make me forget what I was stressed out with to begin with.

I kind of want to live that Panda life, like right now,

Vanessa Shiliwala:  A hundred percent.   Yeah. Napping and eating and then napping, and then eating again, like yeah, yeah.  

Holly Lim: Falling, making mistakes and being totally okay.

Vanessa Shiliwala:  Yeah. And then people telling you you're cute because you fell when you made a mistake.

That sounds awesome.   But yeah. To your point about animals, I think there is something so freeing about just even imagining what it's like in their existence, because,  I know that when I take my dog for a walk, he is so happy he is living it up in every second and all that matters is the present moment.

And in so many ways, he's more free than I am,  we always say like, he has the best life in this house.  But I love that you found these ways and for everyone it's a little bit different, right. But it's also universal of just cultivating joy during these uncertain times.  And speaking of joy,  you recently interviewed Michelle Obama 

congratulations on that.  We just wanted,  fan girl for a moment and relive that experience vicariously through,  through you,  tell us more about that. Were you nervous? What was she like? 

Holly Lim: Like, yeah. Yeah. So it happens. Let's see. So when Michelle Obama did her book tour, when she had released her book and she did her book tour,  she wanted to, she was also doing these,  conversations, like smaller group conversations with different organizations in cities, where she had her, where she was going to do a book tour talk and one of her stops was San Jose. And,  at the time I was working for an organization that she had previously also worked for. And so  we kind of wanted to do  a coming back home thing for her.  She actually wrote about her experience working with the organization in her book.

So I guess it kind of made sense for her to come back. And the organization that I was working for was for  like a leadership development program for young adults. And. And our topic was on inclusive leadership and diversity. And,  how do you thrive as a woman and how do you thrive as a person of color?

A lot of  what we talked about here, we talked about that with her, which was to talk about,  but yes, I was definitely nervous.  I definitely wore my grandma's ring and my watch my uncle gave me. And  in that,  I was not alone in that process.   I had the young people that were in conversation.  I was facilitating the conversation and so we weren't alone.

We had each other,  but I did that practice that I did of,  bringing my ancestors into their room,  because they also have not had the opportunity to be in a room with the former first lady of the United States.  And it kind of made me think of, of. My grandpa in particular, he was, he came here right before the depression started a mandate in San Francisco harbor and was an agricultural worker. He was a manong. So he was picking,  fruits and vegetables up and down in California. And I think my grandfather was actually kind of traumatized a little bit. I think. Because,  there are actually signs that said no Filipinos allowed,

Vanessa Shiliwala:  Oh my gosh, wow. 

Holly Lim: In different places. There are actually books out there where,   that talk about the experience,  there are still pictures out there. If you Google, no Filipinos allowed. You'll see that,   like for some hotels, like right on the step, it would say no Filipino is allowed. So,  not to come in.

So to know that, like, these are some of the stories that my ancestors experienced and to bring them in a room with me to, to be like, you're going to be with me in this space. I know you were excluded before, but like we're in a space where we're going to talk about inclusivity, like that helps with the nervousness.

 And I think, I think Michelle Obama is also just.  So authentic. And so like, I know I keep saying bad ass, but like, she's just so bad ass that like, it just came, I think a really great conversation.  I was super nervous when she came in because she was wearing,  I don't have a word for it. Like the word that I, I tend to say is like,  silky, but pajama suit? Like, it's this like little lavender silky pajama suit that only Michelle Obama can pull off?

Oh my God, I can't believe I'm in the same room as her.  But yeah, like she just came in with this like really awesome outfit and just the vibe and energy of the room shifted.  Because like, you can just feel that her energy is so positive and powerful and,  I was also nervous because,  I was like, Oh my God, I have to facilitate this conversation for 45 minutes.

Vanessa Shiliwala: Wow. 

Holly Lim:   I'm facilitating this space and there's also one person heard from her stuff that I was also looking at to time me because I was like, I know, I know after this,  Mrs. Obama has to go to the SAP center and prepare for her book talk with thousands of other people.

 And I wanted to be sure that we were respectful of the time and that staffer actually came to my corner. And he was like, Hey, so you actually have about 30 to 45 more minutes. Oh my God, what else are we going to talk about? 

Vanessa Shiliwala: oh, my God.

Holly Lim:  So I really had to kind of think on my feet,  But it actually went really well.

It was a really awesome opportunity. It was fun.  There was really good energy and,  I think it was also really important for me in that role was that there were also,  I was the director for a program of, of young adults who were also nervous too. So there was a lot of emotional regulation there, not just for myself, but how can I help the people that I'm leading?

 How can I model leadership right now for them and be supportive to them. So not only was I thinking,  okay, is logistically everything okay? Are the questions? Okay? Am I okay? But also most importantly are my people okay.  And so,  sometimes people will say, yeah, I'm fine.

But then you do a little bit of a one-to-one and be like, okay, I'm hearing, you're a little nervous, let's prepare a little bit in case,  in case for whatever scenario you think might be happening, that you're nervous about. Let's practice that. So, it was a really interesting conversation.

 A lot of juggling kind of happening just because of my role.  But it was pretty awesome. Yeah.

Vanessa Shiliwala:  Congratulations. I mean, what an incredible experience, and I think it's so wonderful that you also used it as an opportunity to kind of have this like intergenerational healing moment with your grandfather.

I think that's just a beautiful story. And,  I didn't know that piece of history. And I think in this process, we're all kind of learning about each other and learning about different ways that we felt oppressed,  or our ancestors have felt oppressed and how we've carry that with us.

But as you said,  really reclaiming that narrative rewriting our own story,  is really where we can find our power. So I thank you so much for sharing your story and for your generosity,  and your openness and honesty with us about your emotions and what you've struggled with. I think it's so refreshing, and I know you're going to continue to be an inspiration to other Asian Americans and women around us.

So thank you so much, Holly. 

Holly Lim: Thank you. If you don't mind, may I add one more thing?  Inspired me to think of something. So,  one of the things that I've learned, you mentioned,  intergenerational healing in a way. And  I took like a Filipino herbalism class and, my teacher for that was Angela angel and she had shared something really profound with me, which is that when you heal in the future, you're healing your ancestors who may not have had the chance to heal.

And you're also healing the future,   you're healing your descendants. So I think,  the question that I want to pose for folks who are listening is what is your way of healing in this life, in the present? And,  how can you move that healing forward so that you're healing multiple generations all at once.

 And for me, that's leadership. Leadership is the way I heal,  helping others lead authentically and,  be themselves authentically in the workplace. That's how I've been able to heal. And so I really encourage folks to find what  their healing modality is and continue to do that, not just for themselves, but for the generations in our families.

Vanessa Shiliwala: That is such a perfect add and such a powerful  story to think about,  whether or not we, we are parents or not.  I immediately of course, thought of my two children, but whether or not we're really parents or not, we're always influencing someone. Right. So I think that's such an important question for us to take with us and, and right.

Holly Lim: Use it as an opportunity for healing, not only yourself, but others and others that come after you.  And as you mentioned before, it's almost like the healing is also fluid, right? It goes backwards, forwards around.  And I think as we continue to talk about it and make others aware of it and encourage it, we can only become  more heard and more seen and amplified.

So thank you so much, Holly. Thank you, Vanessa.